Air Transport Order reaction radius.

Got any suggestions/wish list items? Put them here!

Moderators: Balthagor, Legend, BattleGoat, Moderators

Locked
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Air Transport Order reaction radius.

Post by Draken »

I have been using air assault tactics for several months now and one thing that bothers me is managing which helicopter squadron handles the call for air transport. Usually I keep my heli sqdn 4 to 5 hexes away from my air assault troops and sometimes, when I made a mistake calculating my airlift needs, I issue the air transport order to more units than I can transport with the nearby “assigned” heli sqdn so, the IA assign other sqdns to the task (as it should). Problem is that sometimes these extra sqdn are so far away from the troops they are ordered to transport that they even haven’t loaded their cargo when the closer heli sqdn already dropped theirs. Not to mention that in some cases the flight path of this extra sqdn put them in harm ways… For example:

Lets say that I have a stack of 3 airborne btns and 5 hexes away are 2 UH-60 sqdn (called A and B) and there is another UH-60 sqdn (named C). All units of default size. Now, I issue the airborne stack an Air Transport Order to move them 3 hexes away from their current position. All 3 UH-60 sqdns will react to this order, but A and B will pick up and deliver an airborne btn each long before C can pick up its own and while this happens A and B will be sitting there doing nothing. It is obvious that it would be more efficient if A or B after dropping its cargo goes back and transport the 3rd airborne btn. And, no, I do not want to lock C from AI control, because I want it to respond to Air Transport orders in his assigned area of responsibility (AOR).

So, to solve this (and of course if it is possible with the current game engine), a new property should be added to the units with cargo ability (perhaps in the custom ROE panel of the unit), and it is the Air Transport Order Reaction Radius which will tell the unit how far away from its current position will it travel to pick up an unit requesting Air Transport. Its minimum value should be 0 (same effect as locking the unit for AI control) and the maximum should be “unlimited” which will be also the default value, so by default the units will behave like they do now.
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

:-( :-( No comments? :-( :-(
User avatar
Balthagor
Supreme Ruler
Posts: 22082
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Human: Yes
Location: BattleGoat Studios

Post by Balthagor »

It's only been 24 hours :P We're really making you guys spoiled! ;)

I have no comments on it, most of the wishlist stuff I don't look at, I'm working on other things. David is tracking much of the wishlist content (he's moderator of the section) but he doesn't get on the boards every day. Wishlist stuff is future anyway, not as critical for immediate responses. Don't worry, when it comes to improvements and future projects, all these ideas are reviewed.
Chris Latour
BattleGoat Studios
chris@battlegoat.com
User avatar
George Geczy
General
Posts: 2688
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Location: BattleGoat Studios
Contact:

Post by George Geczy »

I did start writing a response yesterday, but I left my keyboard before I finished it :-)

A very interesting suggestion. Though I am very hesitant to add such a specialized setting to the unit ROE because it adds even more 'complexity' to an already complex interface.

It would be nice if there was an easier way to accomplish this, without a variable range slider.

I also thought that a new order, "Load up", might be worth considering. This way, units would get loaded into transport planes but not actually go anywhere yet - allowing you to send the cargo units to unload once everyone is in. You can do this now by dealing with each unit individually, but it is a pain sometimes and rather micro-managey. Also, this wouldn't handle the example you gave above, where you want one of the transport heli's to do a second trip instead of bringing in the remote heli.

Can you think of any way to do it without a range-based setting?

-- George.
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

Balthagor wrote:It's only been 24 hours :P We're really making you guys spoiled! ;)
That's why we love you guys!
George Geczy wrote: It would be nice if there was an easier way to accomplish this, without a variable range slider.
...
Can you think of any way to do it without a range-based setting?

Actually I've thought about this a lot and this is the simpliest idea I've came with... Some of the others involve some kind of unit hierarchy... But I'll keep thinking about it...

I suggested the Unit ROE panel because I think this should be a per unit setting and that panel seems to be the logical place to put it
George Geczy wrote: I also thought that a new order, "Load up", might be worth considering. This way, units would get loaded into transport planes but not actually go anywhere yet - allowing you to send the cargo units to unload once everyone is in. You can do this now by dealing with each unit individually, but it is a pain sometimes and rather micro-managey. Also, this wouldn't handle the example you gave above, where you want one of the transport heli's to do a second trip instead of bringing in the remote heli.
"Load Up" could simplified the setup of the initial assault, but after the battle is on, "Air transport" will be more useful... 1 order Vs 2 ... The nice thing about "Air transport" is that it is "Issue & Forget" and it would be perfect if we can control the way air units respond to it beyond the current options (responf/do not respond).

"Load into", "Load Up", "Air Transport", "Sea Transport" (and perhaps someday: "Land Transport") will be even more easy to use if we can have unit group stats of total weight and total cargo capacity... :)
User avatar
George Geczy
General
Posts: 2688
Joined: Jun 04 2002
Location: BattleGoat Studios
Contact:

Post by George Geczy »

Yes, the ROE place is the best location for it, since most of the ROE stuff can either be set per unit (in the unit popup) or for a selected group (in Advanced Orders), and this way of working would fit best. But the extra slider is still a less-than-desirable complexity.

Regarding the reporting of total weight/total capacity, I like that idea, and it may be possible to add this somewhere in the future. We've added it to the wish list.

-- George.
Il Duce
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 577
Joined: Aug 10 2005
Location: Venice - the Doge's palace on the Pacific.

do more with less...

Post by Il Duce »

Just read this thread, and couldn't help thinking that organizational mechnisms might also help. Placing Airborne units and their carriers into generic groups [not specifically regiments, brigades or corps] might be a way to associate units with thier carriers. At that point, the existing logic that identifies ari carriers could still be retained, except all it would have to do is filter units by group affiliation. Should return trips be necessary, the first helo in the group that is available would be returned for a next load.

Note that I am not imagining that an order of battle logic might be applied within the group [assault uits first, support units second]....

Of course Organization units have been discussed elsewhere and it seems that the resolution of their value [or complexity of implementation] remains indeteminate.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously [but otherwise, they do not worry and are happy].
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

George Geczy wrote: But the extra slider is still a less-than-desirable complexity.
You are allergic to make changes to the user interface, aren’t you? ;)
Anyway, can’t blame you, I hate doing UI’s too.

Since we don’t want to change the UI, the only way that we could improve the Air Transport Order (ATO) is to change its algorithm. And since I haven’t look under SR2010 hood I’ll do some wild guesses here…

I suppose that the ATO is executed in 2 phases:

(a) Transport Selection. It is done based on target unit weight, target unit air-droppable ability, and transport cargo capacity, pick-up hex type and destination hex type. Once you determine what type of transport is usable (fixed or rotary wing) you select the closest ones to the target units.
(b) Execution phase. Transports go to the pick-up hex, load the units and go to the destination hex.


Now, we need a way to measure how good is the selection of transports done in (a). The first that comes to my mind is to measure the total time that will take to transport all units from the moment of the transport take-off in the pick-up leg. Then, remove the farthest transport and measure the time again. Now, remove the farthest of the new transport list, measure the time and repeat… Of course, I don’t think that this process should be done till only one transport is left, but I don’t know now where you should stop (half of the transport list? Half of the cargo capacity? ??? ). Obviously, after doing this, you pick the one where the lowest transport time.

Just in case is not obvious from the read, this method requires to re-use transport in the same ATO and using as origination hex the destination one, after the initial trip.




Another method (Disclaimer, this could cause severe allergic reaction!):

Use a fixed reaction radius for the ATO giving the player the option to enable/disable it. This radius should be calculated as a fraction of the transport operational radius. For example, let say that transport will only react to an ATO if they are unlocked and within ¼ of its operational radius from the unit requesting the ATO.

Again, the best place to put this check box is on the unit’s ROE panel, but even on the global ROE panel (or as a scenario option) it would be an improvement….
Draken
General
Posts: 1168
Joined: Jul 14 2004
Human: Yes
Location: Space Coast, FL

Post by Draken »

Bump ! To bring some life and light !
Il Duce
Brigadier Gen.
Posts: 577
Joined: Aug 10 2005
Location: Venice - the Doge's palace on the Pacific.

Not much help

Post by Il Duce »

...by way of an operational workaround, I have found that keeping 'adequate' airlift capacity in close proximity to my individual airborne formations [and they are often large] works well - at least the craft used come from a predictable pool. I also tend to spend some time 'training' or rehearsing various movements so that when necessary I know what will happen - which also involves testing movements by formations to determine 'adequate' capacity for a given type of move.

I should qualify this by indicating the my preference for airlift is helos. If you have something like the YAK-60 at your disposal, then it is pretty simple to keep the air-pool for a formation in proximity [as well as freeing formations from proximty to air bases/strips]. A single YAK-60 can transport a T-90 battalion AND an engineer battalion. Three of them can provide a very credible rapid response or assault force.

Helos also offer interesting alternatives to remote supply [instead of trucks], so associating an oversize helo-pool with a formation is still cost-effective. Just reduce the truck count.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously [but otherwise, they do not worry and are happy].
felinis
Lt. Colonel
Posts: 229
Joined: Jan 10 2006
Location: Baltimore

Post by felinis »

Put the radius in the ROE dialog, or prompt for it each time someone hails a ride from a ship or plane.
Locked

Return to “Wish List”